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‘Common Sense’ should use some common sense
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In June, I submitted a letter in which I presented several scientific principles that provide evidence for the existence of God.
In closing, I stated that anyone who desires can prove that God exists. In an on-line comment, someone identified as “UseCommonSense” stated that anyone who desires can prove God does not exist.
I would like to challenge “UseCommonSense” to “use common sense” and present his rational, scientific, historical, philosophical and logical facts that conclusively prove God does not exist.
I realize that this is an unfair challenge.
It is philosophically impossible to prove a universal negative.
For someone to state with certainty that God does not exist would require that person to be omniscient, that is, possessing all knowledge, and omnipresent, that is, being everywhere at one time. But these are attributes of God. In other words, in order for a person to know that God does not exist, that person would have to be God. He would have to be what he claims does not exist.
No human has all knowledge. That one bit of missing knowledge may be the existence of God. If I am wrong, and there is no God, and the Bible is a myth, I have nothing to fear; I have had a good life in this world. But if the atheist is wrong, and there is a God, and the Bible is true, he is in big trouble. Perhaps he should at least consider the evidence.
C. F. (Frank) Morgan, Williamston
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CF,
Speaking of challenges, about a year ago you made another challenge in a letter to the editor.
I responded and you sent me a letter saying you would get back to me soon, but never did.
Were you stumped by my letter or are you still working on your response?
Your mind will never be changes, nor will mine. It's religious people like you that have made me an atheist and I thank you for it. Now while you waste your time on your soap box trying to make yourself feel better than people like me, I'm going to go give someone help building their first home or their only meal for the week and we'll see if they remember my actions or your empty words were what "saved" them for the day that they are living for. Stop telling me I'm going to hell and just HELP ME HELP OTHERS.
C.F.;
Actually, that is an age-old philosophical question that was tackled by the top minds of clergydom, all of the brightest and top worldly philosophers, culminating in the final analytical and philosophical results of 5 "British Empiricists", which were some of the best philosophical minds that have, to date, existed.
In essence, they attempted to find out what could be actually proven empirically. In the end, they could not empirically prove the existence of a God, or even of humans, animals, trees, the universe. So, to make a long story short, if you attempt to "prove" God's existence, it cannot be logically and empirically done so.
Which leaves us with something called "FAITH".
And that was what counts.
So, basically, though UseCommonSense, nor anyone else cannot actually "prove" the non-existence of a God, you, nor anyone else cannot actually "prove" the existence of a God.
Within the realms of Metaphysics, there can be no absolute "proofs", but yet, we "know" from feelings... from sensations... from "FAITH" that there are forces in the universe which exist.
Perhaps you may wish to read the works of John Locke sometime.
And, if you read Locke and find yourself intrigued, you may also then wish to study some Heilbroner, especially his "Inquiry into the Human Prospect", followed by finding a copy of Michel de Nostre Dame's quatrains.
Have fun studying philosophy!
:)
Plain.
Simple.
Common Sense.
Capt. Leonardo Ortiz (USMM)
tola, I'm glad that you are concerned about the well being of others, but I know a lot of Christians who probably do as much or more than you do to help those who are in need.
There are some churches in the area that have built Habitat For Humanity Homes, set up soup kitchens and regularly give food, clothing and sometimes even money to poor families.
There is a good local Christian home to help those recovering from alcohol and drug abuse.
Many churches, and other Christian organizations regularly send care packages and teams of workers to disaster areas and poor countries and yes, even to the poorest areas of our country.
Every able bodied man in our church went and helped out after Katrina. They cut up downed trees, helped with food and water distribution, hauled off garbage and any other task that needed to be done.
A lot of people don't want help from a Christian group because someone might read a few Bible verses or they might say a prayer before the food, clothing or other aid is handed out.
I live by faith that there is a God, because I don't believe that our universe and everything in it happened by accident.
in response to andrew.hammett
Andrew,
About that time, I received a more detailed letter from Mr. Bill Bruehl of Seneca. I replied to him by e-mail with a four-page letter, and copied you, because your comments were similar to some of his. Your reply was "Thank you, I'll read it when I have time." I have not heard from you since. But I did reply to your comments. If you would like a copy of the letter, I still have it on file.
Sincerely,
Frank Morgan
in response to Capt_Leo
Capt Leo,
Thanks for your reasoned and reasonable response. I have studied a little philosophy (dangerous knowledge). My training is in civil engineering (1964), so science is my main interest. And you are correct. God's existence or non-existence cannot be proven by empirical means.
I will go a step further and suggest that true "faith" is not a blind leap into the dark, but a rational conclusion based on experience and evidence. But that is for each of us to work out.
Thanks,
Frank Morgan
in response to UseCommonSense
To UCS:
My "faith", or that which I believe to be true, is never in question. It is based on many years of experience and evidence, including verifiable facts from history, science, logic and philosophy.
I have no worries about burning in hell, because I understand the Biblical teaching about hell. Most Christians don't.
I believe in unicorns to the extent that they are animals with one horn, such as some members of the rhinoceros family, but not the mythical one-horned horse.
Evolution is a pseudo-science that violates every known law of science.
So far, you have not presented any evidence of any kind that God does not exist.
Sincerely,
Frank Morgan
I'm just impressed that one of us had a letter to the editor printed with our name in the title.
in response to UseCommonSense
UCS,
1) If our knowledge is ever evolving (which it is -- no theologian worth his salt would ever argue that our knowledge of God or anything else is "complete"), and there is "no final understanding", then how can you conclude that there is no God, or that the Christian view of God is a concept that should be outgrown, as you put it? Further, your statement that "we are God" contradicts your edict that there is no final understanding, does it not?
2) You say that "odds are, life is energy and has always existed". So you don't object to the idea of something that has always existed, so long as that something isn't God? That aside, you're skirting the question about how life got here... the existence of the impersonal "eternally-existing life-force" that you describe does nothing to explain the origin of the complexities of biological life. I guess it's true what they say about atheism requiring more faith than theism.
in response to frankm
Thanks Mr. Morgan,
You were right. I still have the PDF on email, I'll check it out.
in response to Rob
Excellent points!
God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal and unchangeable, in His being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. Those who recognize the shorter catechism response, can take a closer look at
http://www.shortercatechism.com/resou...
God is like gravity. You can see the results of it without actually seeing it or holding it. If God were not beyond our comprehension and ability to quantify Him, He would not be God.
UseCommonSense, has unfortunately been thrust into the limelight by goading the sensibilities of people of faith. While sharing his thoughts and feelings in an articulate fashion, his most telling statements reveal where he is coming from.
"There is no God"..."We are God. Period"
One statement is the antithesis of the other. I would suggest UseCommonSense is confused and hides it in alot of verbiage. That's okay UseCommonSense, you are not alone, no one else fully comprehends it either.
If indeed "we are God", we would have the ability to prove it. It would probably be more correct to state, we are a "part" of God. By our existence, we ARE a piece of the big picture and the "big picture" is what God is. Empiricism is a manmade phenomenon attempting to know the unknown. Much like the old adagium "not being able to see the forest for the trees", empirical arguments look for specific proofs. God is actually a culmination of all things, since the beginning of time. That is why He knows all, does all, sees all and is everywhere. He IS "all". Take the entire universe from the beginning of time, wrap it neatly in tissue paper, and you have found God. If you can wrap your mind around that, you are on your way.
in response to UseCommonSense
I'll tell you what, you produce GRAVITY at the entrance to Best Buy on Clemson Boulevard this coming Monday at 12pm or shut up.
Why is it anyone's job to prove God's existence to you? My belief in God has no bearing on what ultimately happens to you. You don't wear a weight belt for fear of floating away for lack of gravity, but you can't produce gravity for me. Even though you believe gravity exists, you don't take steps to ensure you don't float off the planet because you can't produce it? Does that make you weak minded? I didn't have to prove that to you. You are very disrespectful of other people's beliefs, for someone who has none of their own.
Whether I can prove unequivocally the existence of God or not, I can assure you one thing, I would rather err on the side of believing there is a God, than not. If there is no God, I have lost nothing. If there is a God, I have won everything. Even someone as clever as you represent yourself to be, should get that!
in response to UseCommonSense
"We are God. period."
Prove to me you are God. If you cannot, you are weak minded for having to believe you are God in order to make sense of everything and give purpose to human life.
in response to UseCommonSense
UCM --
Wow... good response. Replying to my questions by impugning my intelligence and motives without addressing a single one of my points.
Actually, based on your previous post, that was exactly the kind of response that I was expecting from you. Perhaps in the future when referring to others as "weak-minded" you should be a little more sure about the soundness of your own argument.
Common sense and God - Two things that simply can't coexist.
Made me really sad to read some of this. God be with us and our nation a little longer. Amen
You'd think in this day and age, people would be a little more intellectual and not believe in Fairy Tales and myths. But, then again, this is SC, so I guess it's to be expected for people to be narrow minded.
Produce gravity???? That's about the most simple thing one can do.
1. Grasp any object of your choosing in your hand.
2. Stand up and release said object from your grasp.
3. Observe. Does it float in the air? No, it drops to the ground.
There you go, gravity proven.
in response to vanhoose
I'm with you on the whole God thing, but I have to point out that all things "produce" gravity. Including people.
in response to Sabby
No, you are not producing gravity. You are observing the effect of gravity on objects. Seeing the effect of gravity is not the same as producing gravity itself. If you are able to produce gravity, put some in a jar for me and I'll be by to pick it up.
We see evidence of God everywhere around us, does that mean we have to prove His precise form of existence to acknowledge Him?
what time was that at circuit city?
You sure you want to roll the dice? Hell is misearable...you are always looking for someone to f... and you never get satisfied by any of it. My uncles soul is in hell and he is so confused by it all. He doesn't get to move on to a bigger and better understanding of heaven. He is in a stupor.
I would say that heaven and God is a little different than we all think...but I'm always satisfied by doing good service for God and always having compassion for my fellow man...maybe the bible might be a little dated and it does have some contradictory messages, but it was written by man and man don't know God as well as God knows man.
Heaven is wonderful...I was in a coma and believe me, it is a very real place, and man don't know much about that...
keep having compassion for your fellow man, maybe you'll get in on a good behavior pass...maybe two masons will sign for you. I don't know...just thinking outside of the box. My uncle is wearing his box.
I don't think that you want to be like my uncle, wearing your box, trying to hump everything that moves, do you?
Turn your eyes to God...he'll give you the truth that you seek. Be wary of man's box, which includes athiesm and part time inventor turned genius who stole game board from high school student: steve bagwell.
I Promise ...circuit city high noon, God will be present...and if not, you might have to bend your knees and bow your head and do a little conversing...before he shows.
So, we are more ignorant in S.C. Did I spell that right? S.C. is the only state that feels the way some of you hate? I am sure there are some more places you would feel more at home and be more happy. I am sorry you are so filled with hate.
Frank, I am so sorry for some reason you ended up in Williamston SC. The town of a crooked Mayor, that unjust fired the Chief of Police, full of Millhill Hoodlems. But the Truth is, on the Day of Judgement and you bow to Jesus Christ and Confess He is King of Kings, all I can say is you are receiving prayers now that The Holy Spirit Opens your eyes and you ask for Forgivness. Give Jesus a try. Satan will always take you back. It's hard to understand because it is Spiritual.
I have yet to see any 'evidence' of any God. You religious nutbags are just recycling the same nonsense that's been going on for millenia after millenia. Same old story, different name and different 'God'.
God is a Spirit, you can know him or not, (your choice) the church is us the people, not any of these buildings or these preachers that make over 100k a year, from people that are trying to survive. Right is right and wrong I wrong, but I myself would rather believe and be wrong. Than not believe and end up in Hell for all enternity. I am amased at the ways God has moved in my life. Some of these so called churches do good things and some have done me wrong, but I will never give up on God.
in response to moonbeam01us
I am a Christian, but you should really not say junk like that. That's the reason people think we're all crazy.
Ok, as many have already said, this is a debate as old as dirt. So any continued "debating" is really just a waste of good reading time. Which brings me to my comment. It has been my experience that most, if not all, people who don't believe have never really gave the Word of God, being the Bible, a justified chance. Most people read parts of it, some people (Believers) tell others (Unbelievers), "you need to read this and that verse", well, to be honest, it's a one on one commitment between you and His Word. If a challenge is to be made, make it in the form of reading the Bible for more than just a few times. Practice what it says, and watch the results come forward. I'd write more but I have to go to church now to get my Praise On!!!
If you don't believe, so be it, your belief in what ever has already been written before time. And whether you know it or not, your unbelief is helping believers.
Remember Y'all
Love God, Love your neighbor, and even harder yet, Love your enemy!
God is an Alien.
To all:
This discussion has gotten way too complicated. It started with a request to UCS to produce the proof he claimed to possess for God's non-existence. Because he has refused to address the original request, I will simplify it.
First, we should dispense with the insults, ridicule, and name-calling, and stick with factual, verifiable information. Surely we are mature enough to disagree agreeably.
Then, let's consider a few simple philosophical propositions. Either there is a God or there is not. There is no third alternative. If Darwinian evolution is true, God is unnecessary. If Darwinian evolution is shown to be impossible, then God is necessary.
It has never been my contention that God's existence could be proven by purely empirical means. But by applying scientific principles, historical testimony, and logical analysis, God's existence can be proven beyond reasonable doubt by a process of eliminating all other possibilities.
As a Bible-believing Christian and a young earth creationist, I will go out on a limb and probably horrify some of my Christian friends. How strong are you in your beliefs? Can you defend them? I am confident enough in my beliefs that if you can provide one (only one!) undeniable, irrefutable, scientifically verifiable proof of Darwinian evolution, I will renounce my Christian beliefs and join the ranks of atheism. Fair enough?
in response to Freedom_Of_Speech
Clutch burner, I take it you must have been one of the many MANY DUI cases that our former chief of police let go on the base of doing work on the side, for anyone to say he was let go for nothing HA! You either are a bit slow or a bit, excuse me not a bit but a whole lotta of a hypocrite, go to your Bible, dear soul you are turning ppl from God in most every post you make, ppl live to worship God with Kind hearts, not ignorance, hate and finger pointing you are a disgrace to religion and to your family, if your still in your bottle, maybe your sickness can be an excuse if not you are just a disgrace.
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